ANGRY WHITE DUDE’S OPINION ON WATER BOARDING
WATER BOARDING NOT THAT BAD!
The Angry White Dude believes the Obama administration has made a grave mistake in showing Al Qaeda world how our brave men in the CIA obtain information from terrorist murderers. It is obvious to all sentient Americans that Obama does not know who the real enemy is. With each passing day Obama shows more that he does not like the country that gave him the opportunity to be the most powerful man in the world…even though he is enormously unqualified by every standard. Obama and the left still believe, sadly enough, that President Bush and Vice President Cheney are the real enemy. He is weakening the country more each day and we may be lucky to live through his term.
I am proud that we water boarded terrorists. I am proud that American lives were saved by water boarding. I am pleased more terrorist murderers were captured by the information uncovered in those interrogations. What amazes me is the level of care taken by the CIA to ensure that the savages weren’t physically hurt but were merely scared or made to feel uncomfortable. In each of the water boarding sessions, a medical doctor was present to oversee that no permanent damage occurred. That speaks highly of the compassion this country has…even to those who would willfully destroy us. Water boarding is not torture. Torture is what you see in any number of Rambo or Chuck Norris movies. Electric shock, pulling out fingernails, daily beatings, bamboo shoots under the fingernails, forced listening to Barbra Streisand recordings, etc. That is torture. If you want to know about real torture, read what the Japanese did to the Chinese in the “Rape of Nanking” where live babies were thrown into the air and bayoneted on the way down in front of their parents. Or what occurred in the Hanoi Hilton by the North Vietnamese under the watchful eye of the Russians.
AWD does not feel any remorse for the water boarding of only 3 of the thousands of Al Qaeda terrorists captured. When the CIA began questioning Khalid Sheik Muhammad, the mastermind of 9/11, he was asked of future attacks. He smugly said, “You will find out soon enough.” Well, after 183 water boardings, he gave up the terrorist that was going to fly a plane into the largest high-rise building in Los Angeles, the terrorist that was going to take down a bridge in NYC and the locations of other terrorist cells. All of this information saved American lives. Do I feel any sorrow for what Muhammad went through? Hardly. The only thing I regret is he didn’t get a .45 caliber headache when he had no more information. After all, he was directly responsible for 9/11. He financed the 1993 attack on the WTC that killed 6 and injured over 1000. This is the man who decapitated Danny Pearl by his own hand! I’m supposed to feel sorry for this monster? He does not deserve to live in AWD’s opinion.
AWD wants to ask every person reading this post who disagrees with me one question. If Al Qaeda had captured your child and was going to decapitate them and put the results on Youtube and the CIA had a terrorist incarcerated with exact information on where your child was being held…..would you then approve of water boarding or even more extreme techniques to extract that information? If you say NO you are either lying or a complete moron (or true liberal) who doesn’t deserve the freedoms you enjoy in America.
On a personal note, I truly don’t care what happens to captured terrorists. Several years ago, I visited the site of the WTC in New York to pay my respects to the nearly 3,000 people who lost their lives on September 11. As I imagined Americans jumping from windows to escape the TORTURE of burning alive, I was filled with rage. As I imagined the families of the people who were vaporized by the explosions, I was filled with rage. Those families don’t even have bone fragments to bury where they can visit and grieve. I was filled with rage as I remembered watching Muslims around the world dancing in the streets as the news unfolded. I have said before…if it comes to the lives of AWD’s children or the entire Muslim population…goodbye Muslims. I am an American and my concerns and loyalty is with Americans. Especially those of my family.
I am appalled by the acts of Obama! He weakens the missile defense system the day after North Korea tests a ballistic missile (and has restarted their nuclear operations) and Iran grows closer to having nuclear weapons. He closes Guantanamo and plans to release some of the terrorists held there on US soil..and put them on welfare! He provides our playbook on information extraction to the terrorist world and would prefer to prosecute Republicans than murderous savages in Al Qaeda. Damn you Obama for your hate of the country who gave you such opportunity. Damn you Obama for your careless actions that weaken the USA and put us at risk for attack. Damn you Obama for apologizing to communist thugs who ridicule the USA while jailing and murdering people in their countries who want freedom. Damn you for trying to destroy the economic machine that made the USA the wealthiest and strongest country in history. Damn you Obama and damn the stupid people who voted for you. We all are paying for their stupidity!
Svigor,
What exactly do you mean when you say that the “…Islamist war on America tends to look a lot like an Islamist war on Jewish America at times”? Do you have an example? I am a little bit confused at the comment and just wanted some clarification. Thanks.
Tell you what David E. Gabriel, I’m not calling you a liar but I heard that whole “I was listening to Nixon rail about not being in Cambodia, then turning to my LT and asking, where did we just get back from? ” on some movie long ago.. So either you saw the same movie and are telling the truth or you’re a liar..
Care to share your unit info with us?
Torture the POS terrorists then kill them!
Svigorg:And I’m supposed to get into a lather over this? I think not. Patriotism to a ruling elite and state that has sold us down the river long ago is a fool’s errand.
Patriotism is a two-way street.
_______________________________
So, when the going gets rough you will be the one we call Kapo. I’d rather be governed by arrogant ruling elites than pud pulling activist leftist metrosexual introverts with an identity crisis and a one line community organizer job description.
Svigor,
Timely and well stated.
I have shared and declared your views for decades.You sir,are however a much finer “wordsmith” than I.
By all means keep declaring the truth and do so loudly.
My vigor is fading,and the passion to persuade has ebbed.
I simply have been fighting this battle too long.
Despite that,until my last breath,I will fight for truth. Giving up or giving in,have simply never been options for me.
Thank you,for quickening my old bones.I’ll be happy to drive an extra nail into your soapbox anytime.
Hillbilly Jack
This subject is right up misterb’s aisle, I am going to have to go find him.
We worked hard together along with some other old timers to stop the Amnesty Bill..along with the Dream Act they tried to cram through at the last minute hoping nobody would notice on a Monday morning….of course hand in hand with millions of others across this land.
We will be heard!
Sorry I rambled there folks…just needed to….me thinks it is time to say good-night.
Goodnight Bigtimer, thanks for the great comments. Sleep well.
AWD
AWD said: “Fighting from hospitals, schools and mosques. In my opinion, if we fire on those buildings and hurt innocents, we do not bear responsibility.”
This is the kind of junk you randomly spout off that makes me wonder why anyone takes you seriously. What else can you justify in the name of killing the terrorists?
In a couple more months you’ll be advocating dropping a Nuclear Bomb and just clean out the middle east entirely…
Anger impairs judgement.
OK Chad, let me ask you a question. If you are a soldier in Iraq and an Al Qaeda terrorist is shooting at you from behind a hostage…let’s say a woman. There is no way to survive unless you shoot them. Do you die or do you shoot? Are YOU responsible for the woman being in that position or is the terrorist? To save your life you have to kill both of them are YOU responsible? Did YOU make the terrorist take the hostage and shoot from behind her? If you choose to die and let the woman and terrorist live, the terrorists techniques have worked. He knew you would not fire and his life would be safe. In the end, you are a dead American soldier because the terrorist was prepared to do whatever was required to win and kill you. War is not an easy thing. Especially when one side fights by rules and the other does not. Terrorists have already shown that they have NO regard for ANY human life. If we let terrorists dictate how the battles are fought, we lose.
As for people taking me seriously, that is up to them. I offer my opinions on this page and people either agree or disagree. We trade opinions and ideas and sometimes come to consensus or not. In this case, if Chad the soldier chooses to die and let the terrorist live, I disagree with you. And I’m sure that most active and former soldiers disagree with you. We’ll see.
AWD
AWD, way to step away from your previous scenario with an entirely different one that places me in position of certain death. Seriously if you’re going to say something stand by it, don’t dream up some other situation to vindicate your position.
Let me throw out a completely ficticious example for you:
Let’s say you’re living in Iraq or Afganistan and you’re a muslim (I know, it’s tough to do) you actually don’t hate America and you’re just trying to provide for your family. Now you’re at work and you get a call that the school your child attends was fired upon by American forces trying to take out some terrorists hiding there and your child was killed. Do you think you’d be okay with that? You’d still think Americans wouldn’t bear responsibility for your child’s death? Or perhaps your wife was a nurse and was killed in a hospital where a known terrorist was at? This is still justifiable?
Chad, I would be furious with the terrorists for putting my child or wife in that situation. No, I wouldn’t be happy about my child’s or wife’s death. But even I as a non-America hating Muslim realizes that soldiers are going to protect themselves when being fired upon. After all, in your scenario, it wasn’t the Americans who put my child or wife in danger’s way. Nice try.
Next player please.
AWD
AWD, you are one smart fella.
I went back and re-read your original comment just to make sure I hadn’t missed anything. You said:
“The terrorists are the ones who chose to put those innocents in harms way. However, we don’t fire on those buildings and this gives them an advantage.”
No where at all do you speak of our soldiers being in immediate danger or being fired upon. They are not in immediate harm in this scenario. It sounds like you are upset the enemy has a strategic advantage of being able to hide in places like these and we won’t authoize strikes on these types of facilities because of potential innocent casualties.
As soon as I call you on it, you go into attack-mode and paint up a new scenario which places soldiers in completey different situation where it’s kill or be killed. No one would say that a solidier should allow himself to be killed in the street because a terrorist was using a human shield, but that’s not what you originally said. Instead you try and make me sound like I don’t value the lives of our soldiers.
Even in your response to my question you had to throw in the “even I as a non-America hating Muslim realizes that soldiers are going to protect themselves when being fired upon.” I didn’t say that this happened in my question, you added it to validate your position because you know your original statement is tough to defend.
I don’t know why you are absolety sure that our military has to resort to such questionable tactis to win this war. I actually believe our men are capable of winning without shooting up schools full of children.
Chad, why don’t you STFU already,…you’re just “nit picking” AWD to create a diversion with your idiotic leftist “talkin points”!
Hey, war is hell,…you go in there to win by killing people and breaking things.
ROEs that prevent soldiers from protecting themselves,…while the enemy recognizes no rules,..is suicidal and you SHOULD know that, if you even have two neurons to “rub together”!
tazzmax, thanks for you thoughtful input. Invaluable contribution – really.
It’s not “nit picking” to ask a person to clarify why the support military attacks in known civilian areas.
AWD has often cited that people need to be more responsible in this country and take on their own responsiblity instead of living of the government which is a great idea. However, in the same breathe he states “we do not bear responsibility” if US troops attacked a school, hospital or church as long as they killed bad guys along with the innocents.
tazzman said “Hey, war is hell,…you go in there to win by killing people and breaking things”
But it matters who we’re killing don’t you think?
Kestrel:
What exactly do you mean when you say that the “…Islamist war on America tends to look a lot like an Islamist war on Jewish America at times”?
I mean that the vast majority of Jews in these U.S. live in NYC, LA, and DC, and these seem to be the only domestic targets in which the Islamic terror groups seem to have an abiding interest.
Looooooots of soft targets in flyover country, but so far they don’t seem to be tempting the terrorists.
How many attempts did they make on the WTC before they succeeded?
It almost seems like their whole war is vs. NYC, though there are exceptions obviously.
So, when the going gets rough you will be the one we call Kapo.
Uhm, no. When the going gets rough (not that I think it will; I think Brazil is our future, not Yugoslavia), I’m the one you’ll be calling “go to guy.”
And I don’t mean that to say I sit around dreaming about the going getting rough, because I think it very unlikely. I say that because I’m just that guy.
I’d rather be governed by arrogant ruling elites than pud pulling activist leftist metrosexual introverts with an identity crisis and a one line community organizer job description.
Uhm, you’re drawing a distinction that doesn’t exist. Leftist metrosexuals and community organizers are the elite’s best friends.
But I liked the straw man of “arrogant” elite, as if that’s the problem. No. Elites are supposed to be arrogant, goes with the territory. I’d be suspicious of any elite that wasn’t arrogant. No, the problem is treachery, not arrogance.
Thanks for the kind word, Jack. Keep up the good work.
Tazz, thanks for your help with Chad. I give up! But if I ever am at war with anyone, I hope they think like Chad!
AWD
Yes Chad,…every war has what is called “collateral damage”.
Innocents are going to die, no matter what,….do you think the Nazis were concerned about that when they bombed London?
Collateral damage is “a fact of war”
AWD, yeah I can just see th ragheads saying,…wow, we’re worried about too much collateral damage to innocent Americans, ..so let’s just go home!…Hahaha LMAO!
AWD, back on topic,….your feelings are mine exactly,..and I have another idea,…I wish we could “waterboard” congress!
Tazz and Chad, or when the USA and England firebombed Dresden?
AWD
AWD, absolutely!
It’s mind boggling to rationalize just what goes on in the “pea brains” of the guilt ridden, self loathing, apologist Chamberlains!
Tazzmax,
Hehe! “Chamberlains” good one.
In the future when called a “warmonger” which happens from time to time,I now have something new to fire back with.
Thanks
Hillbilly Jack
Come to think of it…those type of people are more like “chamber pots”.
tazzman said: “Innocents are going to die, no matter what,….do you think the Nazis were concerned about that when they bombed London?”
Yes let’s justify what we do by comparing ourselves to Nazis. Do you hear what you’re saying? You guys get all pissed off if someone compares the US to Europe, but you’ll justify any military action provided it’s not worse that what Hilter did. How does this strengthen your case?
“Collateral damage is a fact of war”
Who said it wasn’t? Usually collateral damage is something that is attempted to be minimised during war. AWD thinks there should be more of it and apparently so do you.
“…can just see th ragheads saying,…wow, we’re worried about too much collateral damage to innocent Americans”
Again you’re setting the bar really high for our behavior. You and AWD can laugh at how stupid and pathetic I am for arguing against the logic of attacking schools and hospitals, I’m more than willing to be made fun of over this. What he said is wrong.
Chad says, “I’m more than willing to be made fun of over this.” Good, get ready for more. Your brand of logic shows your weakness. Again, if terrorists fire from schools or hospitals, they bear the responsibility for the results. Nobody except you and our military hating leftist countrymen expect our military to get shot because they don’t won’t fire on a mosque, school or hospital packed with terrorists. I don’t like it, but it is the other guys choosing to surround themselves with innocents.
AWD
AWD you still love to add in those modifying factors to your argument. Now these facilites are “packed with terrorists” and you say “I don’t like it” which is an attempt to soften your previous stance on the issue. It’s easy to win discussions when you’re constantly adding/removing parts of your argument.
Also you still have not answered my question as to why you are positive our military has to resort to these tactis to win this war?
Or why comparing our military actions to those of terrorists as you have or Hitler as tazzman did, is a acceptable measuring stick for our behavior. What isn’t justifiable compared to that?
To Chad and any others that need a reference:
For those that are not familiar with the pertinent articles of the Geneva convention as amended and enforced in 1950.
Article 3.1.b To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
b) taking of hostages
So by the articles that warring parties agree to follow, the taking of hostages is against the Geneva convention. However we have already determined that terrorists are illegal combatants and are not covered by the Geneva convention hence they are fair game to be put down like any other rabid dog.
Another reference from the geneva convention (i.e. the laws of warfare) is that it is a violation of the rules of warfare that, “combatants that use protected people or property as shields or camouflage are guilty of violations of laws of war and are responsible for damage to those that should be protected.” So the straw man of trying to get AWD to admit that our soldiers are responsible for the terrorists actions is just downright silly.
Also, do you have any examples of these attacks from schools etc? I’ve googled for example and have come up empty so far. I curious how often these type of attacks happen. Thanks.
Have you tried from Chechnya? I seem to remember the terrorists took an entire school hostage.
I haven’t Eric, I was looking for examples from Iraq or Afganistan. Plus that was a hostage situation and didn’t target American troops right?
I’m looking for a specific example were al-quaeda or another terrorist group took strategic position in a school, hospital or mosque with the intent of ambushing American troops.
Misnterpreted the scope of what you were looking for. The Chechnya situation was a group of terrorists, rebels, what have you against the russian military. They took a whole school hostage and I believe, could be wrong, that several of the kids were killed by the terrorists and then most of all of the terrorists were killed in the aftermath.
Eric, no problem. You are correct it was a messy situation, I remembered it after you brought it up.
Hopefully AWD will find me a couple of examples to read about. I’m still looking, but with no luck.
One need only ask if one of children were kidnapped and one of the offenders were caught if it took water-boarding to find the location of your loved ones would that be ok. The terrorist may give wrong information when water-boarded, but in the end the truth will come out once they realize their information is being checked out.
Found your site by way of twitter–my twitter name is “russellshih” visit me at TOTUS.
Thanks Ron. Welcome to the AWD family. If my child was being held by terrorists, I would do ANYTHING possible to get the required information. Without apology!
AWD
Then when they capture our guys and torture them, you’ll shit a brick. Hypocritical idiot…
Trickeybusiness, they do worse when they capture our guys. Remember? Remember Nick Berg? What about the US soldier they captured and tortured…..real torture…burns, beatings, broken bones, etc. We found him with his heart cut out. Do you remember that? What do you think he would have preferred? My guess is he would laugh at you liberal weenies all torn up about us putting water up the nose of the guy responsible for 3,000 American deaths! Nothing hypocritical here! Next?
AWD
So what say you about the soldiers prosecuted for torture in Abu Ghraib? One is still in prison. Why did our government punish them if everything was so legal and moral? Why is the Cheney gang protecting their own instead of the guys on the front lines?
I’m not some liberal bleeding heart over what was done to the terrorists. Personally, I wouldn’t mind cloning Bin Laden just so we can beat him to death at all future super bowl game half-times. I’m actually more concerned about the consequences for our guys in uniform. If we (the US) show the world that it’s ok to torture, we have no recourse or reason to complain when others do it to our guys.
And if you minimalize water boarding as “putting water up the nose” of some guy (which, by the way, was NOT the guy responsible for 9/11), where do you draw the line? Another country might minimalize the pulling out of fingernails as “manicures” and such.
It would appear you bought this war in Iraq from Cheney hook, line, and sinker. Maybe he’ll share some of the $$ millions he made by throwing no-bid government contracts to his former employer, Halliburton…
Wise up. You can be an angry white male without being someone’s fool.
Trickey, you call panties on the head torture? I call that college! Your comment about the “Cheney gang protecting their own instead of the guys on the front line” doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. So you want to beat bin Laden to death at half-time of the Super Bowl? But you wouldn’t water board him to find out future Al Qaeda plots to kill innocent Americans?
Also, you better check the news. Khalid Sheikh Muhammad was the planner of 9/11 plus he himself decapitated Danny Pearl. You better take your own advice about being someone’s fool. You sound like Michael Moore’s butt boy!
AWD
Trickybusiness,
Wise up?
First and foremost..
What child or children do you believe you are addressing here young man?
Second,you do not possess,nor can you make claim to,the moral highground on this or any other issue simply by pointing out superficial qualifications and asking questions.
Third,humble yourself,your post reeks of haughtiness and misplaced authority.
If I have mistaken your intentions,and you have come here seeking honest debate and a fresh perspective,I apologize.I,and I am sure many others would be more than happy to answer your questions.If you can prove yourself to be honest.
Hillbilly Jack
OK, I’m the new guy here, and I didn’t come to pick a senseless fight. I do disagree with some of the points you make and wouldn’t mind discussing it if we can do it in a civil manner. If it’s just going to deteriorate into name calling, I’m glad to leave. It’s your site, not mine.
First, I think if some of these things were done to members of your family (waterboarding, for example), you’d call it torture. If that’s so, then the only thing we disagree on is if and when it should be used, and on whom. I don’t think it’s ever been a question of whether or not these are the bad guys — they are. However, our country declared it was illegal and a war crime years ago, and we even put Japanese to death for doing the exact same thing to our guys. If that’s the case (that it’s illegal), then the US broke the law.
I understand that we were all in a panic after 9/11 and wanted to prevent future attacks. For that reason, I think we should investigate it and bring to light what was done to whom, and what (if any) information was gained by our tactics. Abu Zubayda was waterboarded 83 times. According to one of his interrogators, he gave up the name of KSM after just 30 minutes. If this is an attempt to prove that waterboarding works, then why was he waterboarded 82 more times? For the sheer fun of it? If he lied about getting the information so quickly, then it indicates (as the FBI asserts) that it doesn’t work. It’s either one or the other.
I mentioned Cheney because (after 8 years of “no comment”) he’s all over the news lately saying he wants certain memos released to “protect the little guys” — to which I say what “little guys” is he talking about? Evidently not the ones already tried and convicted of torture (one still serving time) that was ultimately ordered by him. I think he should man up and say yes he ordered it and feels it was necessary, then demand our soldiers who followed his orders be released and made whole. I suspect, however, that the “little guys” he wants to protect are the lawyers who wrote the memos. I don’t think he gives two shits about the CIA operatives or the military who carried out his orders.
I’ll quit here and see if anyone wants a civil debate…
Yep…terrible, terrible, he had 80 some cups of water poured down him…
I’ve been crying a river since I have heard how we hurt this poor gentleman.
We are the enemy.
Don’t forget that.
Cheney…2012!
Thank you for your opinion, bigtimer. I’ll wait to hear from AWD if you don’t mind.
Well jeez tb…why the heck didn’t you just say that in the first place…I wouldn’t have wasted my time with you.
By the way…since I’m here anyway, if it was any of my blood in danger, I wouldn’t care one bit what they did to get info out of any enemy we knew had it to save their lives…how about you?
By the way…how do you feel about your side of the aisle and your Dear Leader Pop-Up-Pelosi knowing and okaying all of this behind the scenes…eh?
Msm remains mum…as always.
In reading many of the responses more closely, I can see I’ve stumbled into a small tent of amateurs. You rarely cite facts, and when you to try to include them you get them wrong. (example: waterboarding foiled the attack on the Library Tower, except that it was foiled over a year before we had any terrorists in custody) I can tell you good ol’ boys watch “fixed noise” for the informative brain-washing rather than the comedy. I’ll leave you now to go about expanding hatred within your shrinking group with your circular logic. And while you’re complaining to each other about being in the minority, just remember it’s actually SUPPOSED to taste like a shit taco. So, sit back and enjoy…
Trickey, sorry I didn’t get to answer your myriad of questions yesterday. I’ve stated before that personally I don’t believe water boarding is torture. Pulling out fingernails, burning skin, beatings, watching Sean Penn movies are torture. That aside, I don’t care what we do to terrorists. Would you be crying if we had taken out Sheik Yerbouti with a missile? If they have information that will save American lives, even yours, I want my government to do whatever POSSIBLE to extract that information. To me a terrorist has the same moral equivalence as a rat. Sorry to hurt your highly evolved sensitivities. Now back to Daily Kos you go!
AWD
Oh great…tb is another immature, spoiled, ungrateful, leftist moon-brat.
Think he may related to Olbie?